Without due permission (anticipating they will not have any objection) from my friends, i am copying cyphered version of the dialogue over Predestination that i had with few valuable brothers of mine. Following are the dialogue.
It all started from this !
Dear Friend B
Interesting Quote: “Life is the sum of all your choices” – Albert Camus… is that so?!?
Dear Friend A Here are the few quotes of Imam Ali (as), from one of the best discipiles of Holy prophet and the best of Hazrat Muhammad (SAW) and they make sense even if somebody doesnt believe in other major teachings and verifiable through observation of reali life.
Dear Friend A 1. Our affairs are attached to the destiny decreed by Allah, even our best plans may lead us to destruction.
Dear Friend A
2. After the Battle of Siffin, somebody asked Imam Ali whether they had been destined to fight against the Syrians. Imam Ali replied if by destiny you mean a compulsion (physical or otherwise) through which we are forced (by nature) to do a thing then it is not so. Had it been an obligation of that kind there would have been no question of reward for doing it and punishment for not doing it (when you are physically forced to do a thing, like breathing, sleeping, eating, drinking etc. then there can be no reward for doing it and no retribution for not doing it. In such cases nature forces you to do a thing and you cannot but do it), then the promised blessings and punishments in life after death will have no meaning. The Merciful Lord has given his creatures (human beings) complete freedom to do as they like, and then prohibited them from certain actions and warned them of the consequences of such actions (His Wrath and His Punishments). These orders of Allah carry in them the least trouble and lead us towards the most convenient ways of life and the rewards which He has promised for good deeds are many times more than the actions actually deserve. He sees people disobeying Him and tolerates them not because He can be overruled or be compelled to accept human supremacy over Him. He did not send His prophets to amuse Himself or provide amuse- ment for them. He did not reveal His orders without any genuine reason nor has He created the galaxies and the earth without any purpose. The Universe without plan, purpose and program is the idea of infidels and the pagans, sorry will be their plight in the leaping fires of Hell. Hearing this the man asked Imam Ali, “Then what kind of destiny was it that we had?” Imam Ali replied: “It was an order of Allah to do it like the order He has given in His Holy Book: You are destined by Allah to worship none but Him, here ‘destined’ means ‘ordered’ it does not mean physical compulsion”.
Dear Friend A What I understand and believe is that its a balance somewhere between destiny and choices how our life comes about but we will be judged by our choices in the end keeping in view how much were we capable of and what we chose to do.
Dear Friend B
Phew… 🙂 I totally agree and believe like u’ve written in ur last comment. We tend to look back at our life and feel proud of our good choices or lament on bad choices or bad luck. We r taught from the beginning that..”jo hota hai uss mein Allah ki taraf se behtri hoti hai” but we don’t really believe it at a given time because we as normal human beings are not equipped with the divine gift of hindsight, it is only with time we realize that whether we made right choices or failed at occasions.
Dear Friend E We hardly get any choices in life. Most of the time, destiny decides for us…..
Dear Friend C According to my observation 90% things happening in life is depends on our own acts, words and feelings only 10% depends on luck, destiny or others facts, we r “Ashraf Al Makhluqat” coz we can do and change every thing any thing according to our wishes, except birth and death.
Dear Friend B I found this video on the same topic, pls have a look http://youtu.be/66Vc7PEnkb8
Dear Friend B And this article:http://islamiclearningmaterials.com/fate-and-destiny-in-islam/
Dear Friend B @Dear Friend D u know I have very limited knowledge :), but a question arises in my mind, if destiny decides, then why will we be held accountable for our choices (bad ones) because we are told to believe that it was already written… so !!! It confuses me a bit. The only logic that I can make out is that there are two types of destiny good one and bad one. Your choices (good or bad) lead you to your destiny accordingly.
Dear Friend E Dear Friend B Destiny puts us in situations and God sees how we react to those situations. Whether we weep and cry and become thankless, or make optimal use of the given resources and Thank God is what God tests us upon…..
Ahmm…Ahmm…MashAllah (As ALLAH Wishes/Wills) How about praying
Ahmm…Ahmm…MashAllah (As ALLAH Wishes/Wills) How about praying
? is that going to change our (or for whom we pray ) fate AS DECIDED BY ALLAH, however,
ALLAH does not changes his decisions,it is we who after making mistake would learn and change. FAR BEYOND IMPOSSIBLE If
it does than our prayers would have a lot of (i do not know what
to call here say weight) weight or value that ALLAH would change
his will, although HE knows all the permutations of all our
decision that we will take in our life and his knowledge encompass
a slightest change in our self (bodily and spiritually).As we read in the Ayatal Kursi that what can “Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? … Nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth – 2:255”. So we are nothing but to think and intend (free within boundry) and the rest that comes afterward (actions) are accomplished by mobilizing the resources that we are made responsible for with HIS will for righ and wrong. If we do anything wrong than we are punished for being Zalim (Gunnahgar) due to crossing the boundry of intended use of these resources.
So, we are free (with boundries) to think and intend whatever we want to, we are just free in that, this we can evidence by ourselve that all good and bad comes to our mind but we choose to act upon few based on the guiding principles/knowledge. And if all goes well all the time than something is wrong the same princple applies here, how come a man be taking all the right decisions all the time and there want not any wrong ones. Howeve, some times ALLAH has better plans for his loved creature and he imposes his decision regardless of what a man would try. Imam Ali a.s. once said “Main nay apnay iradon kay tootnay say Khuda to Pehchana hai” He is such KAREEM that HE reward us for small good intention that we hold after making a battle of thought in the warfield of our mind and punish us for wrong deed but not thought.
WE have been given few appreatus to use and make the most out of it one of them is our body and mind that we enjoy using with some governing control authority however its fully not in our control as we witness.
We are mix of free, yet limited, will/intention, partially controlled other resources that we use/make use of. HE knows all what we will do in our life ( all decisions and permutations) and obviously can impose his wishes upon HIS submissive creatures. I belive we all have witnessed at least one of such example that something that we wished did not happend, what happend was beyond our imagination and perception and we were helped and wanted to thank SOMEONE ! Someone very rightly said, with freedom comes responsibility !
My Self Sorry if it was too much 🙂
Dear Friend B :)
Dear Friend B Interesting thoughts everyone… thank u for the input. I am sure all of us have taken something out of this discussion. Do read Dear Friend D’s blog link mentioned above in his comment, its a good read on the topic.
Dear Friend A
All of the questions related to Will/Choice and Fate/Written are answered quite clearly in Quran, Hadith and Sayings of Imam Ali (as) and the ones after him.
Agree with most of what My Self bhai said but… Does\Can Allah change his decision, the answer is yes. Apart from that yes its a mix or balance but we are judged in the end on what we choose as it is unique for human beings to have the power to choose thus accountability but as rightly pointed its not hard at all to observe so many things beyond our control before, on and afterwards any given point in time.
Dear Friend A Sorry if I have misinterpretted anything in the previous comment.
Furthermore instead for sure me as ignorant giving his comments I would like to read and reccomend an excellent book debating on the topic of predestination and related topics “Man and His Destiny” was written by “Martyr Murtada Mutahhari” .
Dear Friend A http://www.al-islam.org/mananddestiny/title.htm
Dear Friend C Where is my comments ??? I think u accept comments based on ur choice or a certain category only.
Dear Friend B
My dear friend Kashif, u have posted one comment which is appearing up there, other than that there r no comments received from ur side. If u r implying that ur comments were deleted due to prejudice then my brother I can assure n promise u that I didn’t get any comment from ur side other than the one that is appearing. I m one of the greatest advocates of free speech :p… There must b a problem at ur end. So chill n post ur comments again, I would luv to hear ur thoughts 🙂
Dear Friend C Yes it is there ill take my words back.
In continuation of previous thread following thread started under the title
“…Does\Can Allah change his decision…” / Pre destination
Dear Friend A Sahib please quote an example/reference for this “…Does\Can Allah change his decision…” 🙂
Dear Friend A
Please correct me if I am wrong in any place towards understanding your point of view which I need a little nudge in the right direciton. Apologies in advance for any transgression. I do claim or feel like a learned person my opinion is based on what I have come to know till know from a few learned.
Simply because of his justice and foremost mercy Allah change our fate/destiny towards our ultimate end in this life and hereafter. Why would he ask human being to pray to him and promise to listen to it if he has already decided everything?
This arrive out of a slightly astrayed assumption and conclusion that since Allah the lord of all there is knows everything like whos going to hell and who is going to heaven and since he knows he obviously agrees with it. This conclusion takes away the whole concept of Adalat (“Justice” for the lack of a better word in my limited vocabulary) and striving for good and bad.
Dear Friend A
I am giving an extract from the book I previously mentioned
“The world famous Persian poet Umar Khayyam says:
I drink wine; and a sound person;
Should have no objection to that;
God knew from eternity that I would;
If I don’t, His knowledge would amount to ignorance.
For a man who is aware of the correct conception of fate and destiny it is easy to refute this specious argument, based on the presumption that Divine Knowledge in eternity was attached to the occurrences haphazardly; and now to ensure that the prior Divine Knowledge should not go wrong and everything should occur according to the prearranged plan, it is necessary that all events should be controlled.
To advance this argument it has been presumed that Divine Knowledge attaches to the occurrence and the non-occurrence of events independently of the system of causation, and that it is imperative to control this system and, where necessary, to curb the natural laws and the liberty of human will in order t ensure that there should be no inconsistency between the Divine Eternal Knowledge and what actually happens.
On the basis of this conception it is necessary to deprive man of his power, liberty and will so that his actions may be brought under control.
But this conception of Divine Knowledge itself is totally wrong and based on complete ignorance. It is impossible that Allah’s Knowledge should attach to the occurrence or the non-occurrence of an event haphazardly and then it should be necessary to bring about any change in the firm and stable system of causation or to curb a natural law or the liberty of human will.
In this circumstance it appears to be very unlikely that the above quoted lines should be genuinely of Khayyam who was at least a semi-philosopher, Perhaps they have been wrongly ascribed to him after his death. Anyhow, if they are really his, then it may be said that he has only versified an idea in a beautiful style, but these verses do not represent his philosophy. Khayyam is known all over the world for his striking ideas and beautiful style.
The Eternal Knowledge of Allah cannot be detached from the system of causation. His Knowledge is actually the knowledge of that system, and it makes it necessary that this world should exist with its specific systems. It does not attach to the occurrence or the non-occurrence of an event direct and irrespective of its causes. The Divine Knowledge in fact attaches to the emanation of an event from its particular cause and agent. The causes and agents are varied. Some causes are natural, while some others are conscious. Similarly some agents are free, having the power of choosing, whereas some others are not. What the Knowledge of Allah necessitates is that due effect should be produced by its due agent. It does not render it possible that the effect of a free agent should emanate from an agent not actually free.”
Dear Friend A correction in the first comment/response I meant to say “I do NOT claim or feel like”
Dear Friend A
Predestination is an evil concept as far as it seems to me and a lot of learned scholars. This will give way to a lot of hatred and injustice as well as few of the human beings who believe in such a concept whether they be jew,muslims, hindus or christains would be led to believe they are the only few “Chosen People” thus allowed to do a lot of wrong in the name of their beliefs and the gentiles, untouchables, misguided ones are on a one way bus to hell so lets hasten it for them as some people in the in all communities believe.
Monday at 5:16pm · Like
Dear Friend A
I am not even sure if I am personally using the right terminology but I have firm faith my direction is right.
Allah has laid down the laws and mercy and its the people within that controlled environment who decide to be good or bad within the power that they may have but Allah excerises his right to pardon, love and forgive people for any minute good and justice that they have done as his Forgiveness overwhelms all other attributes of his.
His knowlege encompases all things he calls his creation towards the best ends and gives chances to all those are led astray by themselves and self interest.
He has not predestined people to goto for example heaven or otherwise from their creation.
Dear Friend A
Prayers coupled with good deeds do have a lot of weightage.
One proof is sufficient for us to refute these
invalid claims, this is the sending of the Prophets and Apostles from
Allah to His creatures during the entire course of human history so as
to rectify the misdeeds of the servants and to explain to them the right
path. [It was also done] to teach them the book and wisdom and to
give them the good tidings of heaven if they are upright and to warn
them of the punishment of God in the fire if they are corrupt.
Monday at 5:27pm · Like
Dear Friend A Please refer to the statements by Hazrat Ali (as) on Dear Friend B ‘s post.
Dear Friend A Holding my keyboard for now.. really forcing myself to… will wait for your opinion
First of all knowing what is going to happen and making it happen are two things. The first one is the knowledge of what could/would happen and the later one is knowing by making it.
Let me give you an example the first one i never experianced that way so can not quote an example, however for the second one is first creating the road from point a to point b,c,d etc.
AS PER MY UNDERSTANDING (MAY GUIDE ME TO THE RIGHT DIRECTION)
ALLAH’s holds all the knowledge, NOW THIS IS WHERE IT GETS VERY SENSITIVE, does HE knows what HE is going to do? Do not worry 🙂 ofcourse HE knows because HE holds the aboslute knowledge and we can not percieve this unless it is revealed to us. So forget it.
ALLAH knows about us the first way. Before he created HE knew what he would create (sorry for the present and past tenses and the limitation of our knowledge to describe absoulte knowledge using time HIS creature that we ALL are bound to – thats our fate we are not free from time in this world) before HE created HE knew WHAT the creation would do (NOT HE PREDESTINED (in an absolute way) so he guided the creatures in general, however few took the advices and successeded and others did not took the advice. REMEMBER “kun fa yakun” so HE does not ACT anything.
ALLAH is ABSOUTE ALIM (Who knows everything that; counts and does not count, that exists and does not exists; that we know by HIS telling and we do not know as HE did not tell us) HE is ADIL because he is absolute ALIM the vice versa is also true for HIM but from our viewpoint to be adil one must be alim only that one can make the justice.
The quote from the peom that you quoted first of all assumes that the poet had his own power and could change or go against the power of ALLAH 🙂 He probabily forgot, if he got a chance to read, ‘laa hawla wa laa quwwata illaa billaah’ ‘there is no change or power except ALLAH’s’ and one can also recite one from Ayattul Kursi, So the one who wrote it made a clear shirk.
As far goes ADL, HE created us, gave us the abilit to think and concieve,and setting us in the right path (nature/fitrat) and gave us the power for the time until it is revoked from us (intiqaal/transferred) and thus gave us almost full control over our matters and were duly informed what to do and what not to do, and HE knows this all since HE created our time and did not interfere.
Remember attached to Imam Ali a.s. is a quote that before he would kill a pagan from Zulfiqar he would ensure that no muslim(momin) would come into his linage ! Ilm from Loh-e-Mehfooz !!! Isn’t it?
We chosed to be the thinkers or HE gave us taufeeq to be the thinkers? Actually we wished to be so and tried to be so by using power and intellect that HE gave us and he bestowed HIS taufeeq upon us to be able to comprehend things that a common man would not understand so easily. This taufeeq is the extra favor that HE bestowes upon HIS creatures to come back to the origional path on which HE set us because REHMAN, RAHEEM and KAREEM wants us to be successful and thats we who go against HIS wish. IF you look at it deeply than you will find that there is actually one way and no other way but one way that leads to HIM the creator of the success and thats it and other leads to actually nowhere (the hell). Aur raasta to sirf Allah he ke rasta hai !
So Dear Friend A Sahib, thats what i meant to say 🙂 I am not as brief as you are ! 🙂
I hope you could help me to get to the right direction ! I just intent to be successful thats all i want ! 🙂
Dear Friend B
I’m glad that I don’t have to listen to Dear Friend A. Reading his comments r good enough 🙂 (I’m implying that his voice would’ve been unbearable for such long passages :p – just kidding though). After reading all the thoughts and knowledgeable inputs from him and u, I believe that now I have stronger understanding and it gives more strength to my point of view which is that we r given choices to choose the right or wrong path it is our choices that lead us to or away from our destiny.
My Self Yes, you are right.
However, there is a question 🙂 What was our destiny? shall we ever know about it? so that we could say “We changed our destiny otherwise it was blah blah blah…” or what we ended up is our destiny that we chosen and there was no destiny but this.
Just another food for though ! 🙂
My Self Dear Friend A Sahib app kahen door chalay gain hai kia? 😉
Dear Friend A Sir I am in a double decker bus.right now :). Will be able to pound away on my keyboard shortly.
Dear Friend E yea but few thing will never change like birth,death n food.other will things will depend on your deeds.in my view.
Dear Friend A
My Self sahab qibla as usual there isnt much that we disagree on might have been my understanding for which I apologised suspecting it already. But I am glad we dissected and clarified issues relating to this top. Another point is that there isnt much confusion in this after all is clearly presented in the Quran, Hadith and logic. We tend to potentialy go astray when we start hypothesising without checking with sources as our own knowledge is observation is limited, kind of like reinventing the wheel but theres no restriction on free speech in Islam as alhamdolilAllah as we have sufficeint resources from where if we learn no logical argument can stand against theses beliefs infact the vice versa.
I am quite glad that you shed light on the fine difference that we usually mix betwen the absolute knowledge of Allah and trying to fathom a faintest of understanding of his knowledge is impossible since that will put us at some comparable level to him, yet the destiny still being in the hands of creatures with freedom to choose as per their knowledge and authority till the last minute. But he is all mercy for his creations except for those who transgress and in the process hurt his creations and disturb the balance of his just system, May Allah help us not be those. And for all the hardships, injustices and struggles will be judged by him. I like the word you used quite accurately in my ignorant opinion “Permutations”.
There exists beliefs where people tend to lean towards the written destiny concept quite a lot like Dear Friend B mentioned that we are told “Whatever happens… happens for good and God agrees to it” etc. is something that doesnt hold ground when analysed logically like did Allah really wanted something bad happen to me while clearly it is the fault of another human being. Yes there can be natural unavoidable disasters and in Both of these cases Allah is our shelter, protection and guide but its not always Allah causing people to do bad things to hurt you and me obviously otherwise the concept punishment and rewards makes no sense. And I know people do try to prove it from religious sources but dare I say that this beleif seem to go against Quran and Common sense understanding of the legal system implemented on the universe.
I am as usual blabbing on and on 🙂 I am sorry I will keep it till here for now.
Dear Friend A Yes Imran you are right sir no denying there are always things out of human control and sometimes there are quite a lot thats why we are ask to strive and pray together.
“Oh you who believe! Seek help with patient perseverance and prayer, for Allah is with those who patiently persevere.” (2:153)
Dear Friend A (Just trying to get even with Dear Friend B bhai.. not sure should i even dare.. 😉
Dear Friend B well as much as I would have loved your presentation, personality and voice wouldnt have made much sense at all, glad that we have <My Self> sahab as mediator of a sort :D!
My Self Can this be converted to or the one we discussed on Dear Friend B’s wall in sort of one document. Its worth keeping in that we, atleast i would like to collect all this knowledge for sharing further.
Yes, we agreed on most. However, i feel like due to my lack of ability to explain, i have not been able to convey the message completely. However, if you read my comments in response to Dear Friend B’s comments on this thread that would explain what i meant better. For your ease copying here 🙂
“However, there is a question 🙂 What was our destiny? shall we ever know about it? so that we could say “We changed our destiny otherwise it was blah blah blah…” or what we ended up is our destiny that we chosen and there was no destiny but this.”
I really enjoyed writing after mentally speaking to you guys and felt the warmth of company of you gentlemen !
May ALLAH bless us, and Guide us and make us from those upon them HIS blessings were showered and keep us firm on the straight path and enlighten our hearts with ILM and Empower our Eman specially & Keep it firm when we are being transferred and give us the oppertunity to see HIM and thus reach to the highest level of EMAN and YAQEEN that we creature could ever reach and Salawat on Muhammad p.b.u.h and his progeny p.b.u.t. due to which we are able to recognise HIM otherwise we all would have gone astray. Alhamdullilah that HE showed us HIS REHMAT, REHMANIAT, HIDAYAT, GAZAB and ILM e Mujjasam.
Dear Friend B I will also keep a copy of this useful discussion for reference. Will take more liberty in future and bring in more such topics that bug me at times, it’ll b good to hear ur knowledgeable selves’ collective thoughts 🙂